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Tsang Says Democracy Can Lead To Chaos
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| posted by potpotato 330 days ago |
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In a phone-in program yesterday, this conversation took place between the program host and Donald Tsang:
Host :
I was struck by one phrase at the end of the policy address, towards the end of the conclusion, you say, we promote democratic development without compromising social stability or government efficiency, that kind of implies that democratic development does compromise social stability or government efficiency?
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Donald Tsang :
It can, it can, if we go to the extreme, people go to the extreme, and you have a cultural revolution, for instance, in China. When people take everything into their hands, then you cannot govern the place.
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Host :
But Cultural Revolution wasn't really an extreme example of democracy.
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Donald Tsang :
What is it? People taking power into their own hands! Now, this is what it means by democracy, if you take it to the full swing. In other democracies, even if you have an elected person, then you overturn the policy in California, for instance, you have initiative number, number, number what, then you overturn policy taken by the government, that's not necessarily conducive to efficient government.
Is Donald being serious or was he merely trying to spice up an otherwise slow news day? 
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| posted by Load Toad 330 days ago (edited 330 days ago) |
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I didn't hear the full exchange - but certainly citing The Cultural Revolution with regard to an example of chaos from democracy was f' stupid. Not only would the HK people be alarmed but I bet the puppet masters in Bejing would be less than impressed.
However it is a fact that often the progress to democracy and universal suffrage and the period after a country moves to democracy and universal suffrage are times of chaos. Democracy often comes from revolutions (France / USA would have been examples) and following democracy there is often a great deal of social conflict and chaos (France, Iraq) being examples. Of course you could also show that it does not have to be the case that democracy causes social instability. And in a place such as HK it would be very very unlikely. What would be likely and I think is currently the situation is there is a great deal of uncertainty in HK as to what the political views and positions should and could be. What can realistically be achieved (given it is a SAR of the PRC) and what Beijing would ever allow.
He would have been right to say but probably knows he can't say is that given the increasing wealth gap in HK and the fact that it is likely those with minority interests would lose out (i.e. the few cartels and the very rich tycoons and business people) to the more left wing working class that there would be a possible flow of cash out of HK to areas where social / economic policies were more in favour of the elite.
Now that would be the extreme which would overturn their vested interests (efficient govt).
What is harder to understand is why a move towards more policies to help the working and middle class prior to allowing universal suffrage are not being put into place - if there was social harmony and satisfaction with the government there would be no need for extreme measures or chaos afterwards would there?
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| posted by migao 330 days ago (edited 330 days ago) |
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Hong Kong could look at what happened in more (economically) developed former Eastern European states such as Czech Republic, Hungary & Estonia: hardly chaos at all and prosperity continuing.
Tsang wanted to keep this in Chinese context, but comparing to Cultural Revolution has no relevance at all - that was not a democratic or people power movement but orchestrated mass madness from the top.
If he wanted to put democracy into Chinese context he could look at Taiwan instead, and there lie the challenges that Beijing dictators are afraid of: if HK people are given full democracy, they may turn their arses to Beijing just like the Taiwanese.
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| posted by potpotato 330 days ago |
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Hong Kong can never emulate Taiwan even if she wanted to. Hong Kong doesn't have her own army.
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| posted by Load Toad 330 days ago |
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Taiwan; 50% 'Formosa', 50% KMT. Nothing like Hong Kong.
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| posted by migao 330 days ago (edited 330 days ago) |
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Some similarities:
- only places that use classical Chinese characters and celebrate traditional Chinese holidays as public holidays
- Apple Daily the most popular daily in both
and much more... somebody who has lived in both better go on from here.
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| Newbie |
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| posted by potpotato 330 days ago |
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Both love Jolin Tsai and Lin Chi Ling?
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| posted by AKA 330 days ago |
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Jolin would get it, for sure
what's Vonnie been up to lately?
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| posted by puyi 329 days ago |
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Donald may have upset not only the people seeking change in Hong Kong but also head office ala Beijing with his demonizing of the cultural revolution which officially is still not viewed as a bad time in the communist rule of china
....oops Donald you are the first person high up to refer to the cultural revolution as a time of chaos etc etc (even though it is correctly known for this outside of china)
darren rudd is and never was a sinophile
but the reports were a smoggy mistake
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| posted by Load Toad 329 days ago |
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Listening to the interview you can tell he knows he's just walked into a dangerous cul de sac and he isn't clever enough to get out of it. Pathetic really. Still he's apologised. But he hasn't explained what he was trying to say.
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| posted by tvbtiger 329 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by migao
Hong Kong could look at what happened in more (economically) developed former Eastern European states such as Czech Republic, Hungary & Estonia: hardly chaos at all and prosperity continuing.
I think this is very good comparison. Eastern Europe is of course nothing like HK if it comes to economy and prosperity, but there was no chaos, no cutting heads off after the changes in 1989. It's just it was people, not Moscow, who was choosing parliaments and governments, and presidents. People. That's the democracy. And if people didn't like their choise, they could vote for someone else in next elections. That's all. No bloodshed, not chaos, nothing of that sort. Chaos was in economies (socialism -> capitalism) for some time, but that's not HK's problem.
Tsang knows that people may not choose pro-Beijing representatives and that's where it hurts :P
Anni
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