|
|
Religious Symbols and secular State.
|
[ New Topic]
|
|
| Regular Member |
 |
| 6187 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by Waterslang 1204 days ago (edited 1204 days ago) |
  |
Bring in your views regarding religious symbols versus racism and versus politics.
What about the ban of religious symbols in France’s state schools?
Is it because they are intolerant against religion in general or against Islam in particular?
Or is it because some are using religion to provoke the native population and therefore the government decided to ban it in their public schools?
Agreed lots are punished for the acts of few. But, as I have been living there (not in France), I do understand them maybe better than they do here in Asia.
Fact is that the ban on all religious symbols was introduced in France because of provocation. I also think other countries will follow that example, if they didn’t already. I do support the French decision. Please don't kill me. Grin.
BTW, we keep the discussion polite, huh?
|
|
|
|
|
| Senior Member |
 |
| 11580 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by tinybear 1204 days ago |
|
I think it's fair enough that if the majority of the population thuinks that their country should be 'secular' then it should be. But being 'secular' means no more than the state doing nothing to actively promote any particular religion in state-funded organisations or occasions or anything which might unduly favor one religion over others. There should still be freedom for the individual, within reasonable limits, to engage in religious expression.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Regular Member |
|
| 6594 Posts |
| in |
| United Kingdom |
|
| posted by Gum Tree 1204 days ago |
|
The whole headscarf thing is just a beat up to cover the real issue: state sanctioned bigotry. Who gave a rats about them before 9/11? The propaganda surrounding it is amazing! Tb' comment about muslims treating their women as second class citizens is a case in point. Whose truth is that? Not mine, and certainly not every single muslim's view. But somehow the head scarf thing has been "cleansed" by propaganda - to turn it into some type of "save the muslim women" campaign. What next? Burn books? Bring back the Inquisition?
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Senior Member |
|
| 11580 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by tinybear 1204 days ago (edited 1204 days ago) |
|
But it's true isn't it? There is no gender equality amongst the Muslim population, right? There are some places in mosques where women are not allowed to go and they are not granted certain prayer privileges men have. They can be divorced at the whim of their husbands. Men can take multiple wives whereas women cannot take more than one husband...etc. The list goes on and on.
|
|
|
|
|
| Junior Member |
|
| 578 Posts |
| in |
| Australia |
|
| posted by npg 1204 days ago |
|
i think men can only take multiple wives if they are financially able.
|
|
|
|
|
| Regular Member |
|
| 6187 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by Waterslang 1204 days ago (edited 1204 days ago) |
|
France used to have crosses in class rooms, also in State owned schools. In fact nobody looked at it as it was just part of a tradition.
Jews all over Europe are wearing their yarmulke without any problem, even as we all know what mainstream Euro attitude towards the Jewish people was.
Muslims females wear their headscarf or a plain burkha. Sikhs wear their Turbans etc, etc...
Isn't it funny that the headscarf was banned and of course with it all other religious symbols to avoid racist attacks? Why?
I do happen to know that young Muslim women who didn't wear the stuff before, all of a sudden were forced to do so by a part of their community.
There was a story in France about 2 years ago. A girl was gang raped by members of her own community for dressing... to western!
Agreed it's only one example but there are much more, less extreme ones. Also, it is only a small part of extreme nuts that is behind these stupid acts. As usual it is THEY that make it into the news,not the others. But it is also THEY who make the native population see the whole community as a dangerous evil group. Sad it is. True also.
The Government acted. I support the govt on this one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Junior Member |
|
| 587 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by Azrael 1204 days ago (edited 1204 days ago) |
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gum Tree
The whole headscarf thing is just a beat up to cover the real issue: state sanctioned bigotry. Who gave a rats about them before 9/11?
The father of modern Turkey, Ataturk, introduced the same law when he came to power in...the 20's (I think). He too, was of the opinion that the headscarf could be used for the oppression of women (symbolic or otherwise), and declared it illegal. And that was in an Islamic country!
quote:
Originally posted by Gum Tree
Tb' comment about muslims treating their women as second class citizens is a case in point. Whose truth is that? Not mine, and certainly not every single muslim's view.
The Earth is not flat? Whose truth is that? Not mine, and certainly not everyone else here at the asylum.
- women are required to hide their bodies.
- women are required to obey their husbands.
- women are beaten at the whim of their husbands.
... and it's condoned - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3396597.stm
- women are killed for "dishonouring" their families.
... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2802305.stm
- women are gang-raped as punishments
... and the men walk free - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4322021.stm
- women are not allowed to drive cars or vote (Saudi Arabia)
- women are not allowed passports, or even to travel without a man (Iran)
And as I posted in the other thread...
TEXT FROM THE QURAN, 4:34
"Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great."
In the Islamic publication "You Ask and Islam Answers", page 94, Abdul Mushtahiri says, "If admonishing and sexual desertion fail to bring forth results and the woman is of a cold and stubborn type, the Quran bestows on man the right to straighten her out by way of punishment and beating provided he does not break her bones nor shed blood. Many a wife belongs to this querulous type and requires this sort of punishment to bring her to her senses."
So if all of the above doesn't do it, what exactly would constitute women being treated as 2nd class citizens?
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. 
|
|
|
|
|
| Regular Member |
|
| 6187 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by Waterslang 1204 days ago |
|
You really carry a passport of Vatican City, monseigneur?
Lol.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Junior Member |
|
| 587 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by Azrael 1204 days ago |
|
Yes, my child.
Now say a couple of Hail Marys for doubting!!!
Hahaha...
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
|
|
|
|
|
| Regular Member |
|
| 6187 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by Waterslang 1204 days ago |
|
Right, I missed the opportunity to shut up!
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Junior Member |
|
| 2409 Posts |
| in |
| Singapore |
|
| posted by rachel_z 1204 days ago |
|
Azreal, sad to say, you have misunderstood. Never read only a verse of the Quran without reading the whole chapter. It is not up to me to explain the whole chapter of An-Nisa (of which that particular verse was extracted from) to you because instead of making you understand, it might make you feel that Islam really treats women as second class citizens. Now, the countries that you have mentioned are still practicing pagan Arabic traditions, and are not totally Islamic though they have been seen as Islamic states. As I have mentioned in my thread about the equity of genders in Islam, people and governments have used religion to oppress women for their own fulfilment and purposes. No religion shall be condemn, even if you are not a believer but I have to say again that men and women are equal in the eyes of Allah. However, you are entitled to have your views.
http://www.thewaytotruth.org/womaninislam/rightsofwomen.html
http://www.thewaytotruth.org/womaninislam/financial.html
http://www.thewaytotruth.org/womaninislam/humanrights.html
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Regular Member |
|
| 6594 Posts |
| in |
| United Kingdom |
|
| posted by Gum Tree 1204 days ago |
|
Azrael. When I say it is not MY truth - you have to respect that. That is because I have no evidence that this is the truth. I object to people stating such and such is a "truth" when really, the majority of us (on this site, anyway) have no direct evidence that it is universal. The things you stated above are a westerner's interpretation. Why is hiding a body considered to be a sign of unequal attitudes? Don't western businessmen "have" to wear a suit and tie? Don't nuns and priests still wear loose robes? Don't we wear certain clothes to work, funerals, weddings etc? Clothes are social mores, not religious.
Obeying husbands? Well the Catholic Church turns a woman's body over to their husbands - to procreate. And god forbid she wants to get a divorce. It is only the social structures in western countries that have "allowed" women to reach beyond that. In the developing countries, those laws, laid down by the church still are maintained. Maybe the women aren't stoned to death [that is a state, not religious law, in any case], but they are often shunned, left to support the children by themselves.
The only muslim women who are not allowed to vote or drive, I thought, are in the US' favourite country, Saudi Arabia. A royalist patriarchy.
It was only very, very recent that a woman's past sex life was not taken into court when she accused someone of rape in Western countries - the US, Australia, Britain, France etc etc. To point the finger here, is to forget how recently the laws have changed. Women have ALWAYS suffered rape as a consequence of male's desire to exert authority. Ask the war victims in China, Germany, France, Vietnam etc. It is a social/gender issue, not a religious issue. Mohammed, like Jesus, never preached that it is fine to abuse women in this way. It is a male thing. Women don't rape.
All the things you relate to a religion are just things that are about gender /power issues. They happen in any religion. How soon we forget.
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
|
|
|
|
|
| Regular Member |
|
| 6187 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by Waterslang 1204 days ago |
|
Holy Cow,
(Am not Indian though).
Am agreeing with GT here.
Sysop? You know a good shrink?
Ok, joking for the above.
Your last phrase said it all, GT. Yes.. Agree.
|
|
|
|
|
| Regular Member |
|
| 6187 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by Waterslang 1204 days ago (edited 1204 days ago) |
|
BTW, all of you, ??
Who read "Angels and Demons" or the later "Da Vinci Code"?
Says alot about Mankind versus Religions, without saying that Dan Brown is a prophet (pbuh), okay?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Junior Member |
|
| 587 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by Azrael 1204 days ago (edited 1204 days ago) |
|
This debate has now spread over a few threads, but in my original reply I started by saying that it may be the religion, or it may be the culture or tradition of those countries that happen to take Islam as their religion. I've seen several Muslims argue for the latter case. And in (almost) all my travels in Muslim countries, I have always been struck by their tolerance, hospitality, and restraint from trying to preach their beliefs.
But to deny that the vast majority of women in these countries are treated as 2nd class citizens is a case of burying your head in the sand. Saying it's "your" truth is as ridiculous as my claim that the Earth is flat. But I respect your right to do it.
Yes, western businessmen "have" to wear a suit and tie, and nuns and priests still wear loose robes. But they don't HAVE TO. The difference is that they don't risk being beaten or thrown in prison or killed if they don't. They still have a choice.
And whilst women have always suffered rape, not since Roman times was public and/or gang rape handed down as a sentence, and used as a punishment. Even today, this, along with violence and killing, is used to brutalize women in Islamic societies - and with few exceptions, it is accepted and the men remain free and unchallenged. Not speculation. Not "my" truth. Actual FACT.
Using the crassness of the Catholic church to justify the behaviour of Muslims doesn't work either. Wrong is wrong. But even the Catholics don't publish books on how to keep your woman in line by beating her (based on their holy book, or not). And I have less than no sympathies with the pope and his minions.
Fortunately, Western countries were liberated from the power of religious organisations and their barbarism (especially the aforementioned church) a long time ago. Secular govts and societies may not be perfect, but they are a damn sight better than countries ruled by thousand (or more) year-old dogma.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
|
|
|
|
|
| Regular Member |
|
| 6187 Posts |
| in |
| Hong Kong |
|
| posted by Waterslang 1204 days ago |
|
Born Catholic and left the religion at the age of 12.
Azrael,nothing to add. You're right, at least in my book.
Salaam, Peace, Amen.
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
