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local language in international schools?
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| posted by Juno Watt 209 days ago |
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Migao, I agree with you. But SWS has got it right: Cantonese isn't taught in international schools because most of the kids attending them are native Cantonese speakers anyway.
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| posted by Juno Watt 209 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by HKBloke
nope. i have never found a need for it sorry. It's a dead language.
This is such BS. Cantonese is a vibrant, evolving language spoken by 100 million people -- rather more than Welsh.
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| posted by migao 209 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Juno Watt
Migao, I agree with you. But SWS has got it right: Cantonese isn't taught in international schools because most of the kids attending them are native Cantonese speakers anyway.
Yeah, makes sense that it's not a mandatory language for them... but then again, it's strange that there doesn't even seem to be a curriculum for teaching it as an optional foreign language.
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| The Designer |
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| posted by HKBloke 209 days ago |
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Because given the choice any parent would go for mandarin over cantonese.
There is no demand for people wanting to learn cantonese hence there is no supply.
All we need to do now is get French on the same path.
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| posted by Load Toad 209 days ago |
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% wise as a proprtion of China how many speak Cantonese with regard the % of people in UK who speak Welsh?
A language may be vibrant, rich, interesting..it may help to communicate with locals - understanding a language may enrich your life. But it doesn't mean its 'useful' or vital. Some people do languages well and enjoy them; some of us don't.
If the point is to learn things 'useful' then stick with the big languages...if the idea is to get some insight or empathy with the locals - fine - learn a local language.
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| posted by sunwaterandsky 209 days ago |
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The issue for foreigners learning Cantonese is that it is a particularly difficult language to learn. I was the only foreigner in my old job and my coworkers refused to teach me any Cantonese because they wanted to practice their English. To learn it effectively, you need to take daily lessons or live with a Cantonese speaker. Neither option is likely to happen for me.
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| posted by Killer Tomato 209 days ago |
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particulartly difficult? hah me with my low level i have learned it quite easily, just because i wanted to. those who say its difficult are likely saying it because they are too lazy. i learned with simply writing everything down, est voila!
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| posted by Load Toad 209 days ago |
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Chef - people can learn and some people have a natural ear for languages - some don't. I don't. Neither frankly to I particularly care much as I'm still struggling with using English as effectively as I'd like.
Then again I'm f' amazing when it comes to the vagaries of fusible ceramic decoration and techniques - I'm not 100% certain it would help you as a chef though you would appreciate the table and cookware you use more.
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| posted by HKBloke 209 days ago |
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I agree 100% - it's an individual thing. My eldest son can speak 6 languages and seems to be able to learn them effortlessly. My other 2 sons are still having problems coping with English.
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| posted by geraldo 209 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Killer Tomato
i learned with simply writing everything down, est voila!
classic, flat out on the floor
There are 10 kinds of people. Those who can read binary and those who don't
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| posted by Juno Watt 209 days ago |
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Yes, and he forgot the grave accent over the 'a' 
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| posted by Juno Watt 209 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by migao
Yeah, makes sense that it's not a mandatory language for them... but then again, it's strange that there doesn't even seem to be a curriculum for teaching it as an optional foreign language.
Shame we don't live in New York: http://www.cantoneseonline.org/
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| posted by puyi 209 days ago |
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Cantonese is only spoken in Guangzhou and Hong Kong and a lesser effect in Macau, traditionally areas outside of canton spoken their own dialect and it is still spoken in villages and towns in Guangdong province ( taishanese is 1 such ) it is only by the occurrence of the Cantonese speakers being attracted to migrate ( work ) in Hong Kong that the place ended up with a majority of these speakers....the Hakka who had lived in the new territories for more than 4 centuries spoke their own language
go 30 clicks north of Hong Kong and you will hear mandarin as the lingua franca....go further into Guangdong province and you will hear mandarin being the medium of instruction in many schools as is the new direction of Beijing,
Last July Michael suen announced that local schools will move to mandarin being the medium of instruction and for the need to re train the local teachers to be able to cope with this.....and the definition of Cantonese as now a dialect rather than a language in it own right.....which carries strong political weight as it relegates Cantonese to a lower level of communication
darren rudd is and never was a sinophile
but the reports were a smoggy mistake
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| posted by Juno Watt 209 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Load Toad
% wise as a proprtion of China how many speak Cantonese with regard the % of people in UK who speak Welsh?
LT, from Wikipedia:
"The exact number of Cantonese speakers is unknown due to a lack of statistics and census data. The areas with the highest concentration of speakers are in Guangdong and some parts of Guangxi in southern mainland China, Hong Kong and Macau. Cantonese is the de facto official language of Hong Kong. Other major groups include Chinese minorities in Southeast Asia. The popularity of Cantonese language media and entertainment from Hong Kong has led to a wide and frequent exposure of Cantonese to large portions of China and the rest of Asia."
It however makes an estimate of 70 million speakers in China.
Also according to Wikipedia, there are 750,000 speakers of Welsh in the UK.
1.3 billion / 70 million = 5% of China speaks Cantonese (against 55% speaking Mandarin)
60 million / 750,000 = 1.25% of the UK speaks Welsh (against 99% speaking English)
It's interesting to compare the two languages though, for while Welsh is officially encouraged and supported in the UK, Cantonese (along with other Chinese language groups like Hakka, Hokkien and Shanghainese) is suppressed in China and Singapore.
"The prevalence of Hong Kong's popular culture has spurred some Chinese in other regions to learn Cantonese. Many artists from Beijing and Taiwan have to learn Cantonese especially for distribution in Hong Kong.
The contrast is especially clear with other Chinese varieties, such as Wu. Wu has more speakers than Yue (the wider group under which Cantonese is located), it is spoken in an area that is approximately equally wealthy, and Shanghainese, one of the prestige dialects of Wu, is spoken in Shanghai, arguably the economic centre of Mainland China. However, Shanghainese is not used in official contexts, Shanghainese does not have a form of popular music, and is virtually unknown in the West. This is because usage of Shanghainese is discouraged by the government, and is banned in schools".
"In Singapore the government has had a Speak Mandarin Campaign (SMC) which seeks to actively promote the use of Standard Mandarin Chinese instead of Chinese dialects, such as Hokkien (45% of the Chinese population), Teochew (22.5%), Cantonese (16%), Hakka (7%) and Hainanese.
In addition to positive promotion of Mandarin, the campaign also includes active attempts to dissuade people from using Chinese dialects. Most notably, the use of dialects in local broadcast media is banned, and access to foreign media in dialect is limited. Some believe that the Singaporean Government has gone too far in its endeavour."
How backward it would seem if Welsh were treated in this way.
There was an item in the SCMP just today reporting on Cantonese broadcasters in Guangdong being denounced by the central government. This for me is reason enough to support Cantonese. 
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| posted by Juno Watt 209 days ago |
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Here's an interesting map:
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| posted by puyi 209 days ago |
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yes where is tibetan and the turkman languages of the other invaded lands >>>>
darren rudd is and never was a sinophile
but the reports were a smoggy mistake
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| posted by Load Toad 209 days ago |
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I can't see why there should be an attempt to ban or basically kill a dialect - it's what contributes to the character of a place. I can understand Singapore as an example wanting to make sure its citizens can speak English, Malay, Mandarin effectively but I can't agree with dissuading people from using languages that to their group are valuable.
Welsh population is ~ (2005 estimate) 2,958,600 so of the people who choose to live in Wales 25% speak Welsh and they teach the language in schools, have Welsh TV channels and they have some highly organised male voice choirs that can kill at 500 yards.
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| posted by Juno Watt 209 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Load Toad
I can't see why there should be an attempt to ban or basically kill a dialect - it's what contributes to the character of a place.
My point precisely.
The reason Mandarin sets my teeth on edge is its status as a tool of cultural oppression, like Newspeak, by the paranoiacs of Beijing. I believe in diversity, it's what makes the world so interesting.
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| Junior Member |
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| posted by migao 209 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by puyi
go further into Guangdong province and you will hear mandarin being the medium of instruction in many schools as is the new direction of Beijing,
Last July Michael suen announced that local schools will move to mandarin being the medium of instruction and for the need to re train the local teachers to be able to cope with this.....and the definition of Cantonese as now a dialect rather than a language in it own right.....which carries strong political weight as it relegates Cantonese to a lower level of communication
I thought Mandarin has been the only allowed medium of instruction allover Mainland China for long, long time, even including Tibet and definitely including Guangdong.
Here in HK, I remember that they have called for more Mandarin and English to be taught, but a complete switch from Cantonese to Mandarin in local schools, have they really announced that?
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| posted by migao 209 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Juno Watt
Here's an interesting map:
Mandarin is not the native tongue in such huge area. I have not found any other places than Beijing and Nanjing where Mandarin is the native tongue.
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