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U.S. Jewish Leaders Urge Boycott of Olympics
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| posted by puyi 68 days ago (edited 68 days ago) |
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life expectancy, education levels, access to water & electricity, and so on have increased enormously.
like wise in india and other parts of the world in the post second world war period ...
china also plunged tibet into years of famine by attempting to change tibets agricultural needs based upon barley/ wheat to chinese wants for rice production
darren rudd is a sinophile
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| posted by bus aunty 66 days ago (edited 66 days ago) |
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I don't understand the purpose of giving averyone/groups who want to form their own kingdom, the right to do so? Yet, we have some individuals going on about nations being such a yesterday concept?
I would have thought as ONE global community, and with people being the same everywhere, (ask most families everywhere and universally, everyone wants to be able to concentrate on 'feeding' themselves and their family), it shouldn't matter which style of government is in place, as long as they are bringing up the 'standard of living' for as many people of that society as marginally possible.....Obviously there will be losers and winners in every society but as long as the country is moving in the right direction for the bulk, you can't complain.
Tibet is doing much better under Chinese rule, than they ever were. Testimony to this is the fact that even the Dalai Lama does not want independance, he knows it is better for his people to be with their neighbour than not.
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| posted by bus aunty 66 days ago |
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Anyone ever heard of the concept, the sum of the whole, is better than each on their own?
Sometimes, it is better to be together and clearly, Tibet is much stronger and better off with everything that China has been able to offer them. And can continue to offer them.
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| posted by smog 66 days ago (edited 66 days ago) |
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quote:
Originally posted by bus aunty
as long as the country is moving in the right direction for the bulk, you can't complain.
Er, no. That is the essence of a totalitarian state. The right of minority views to be heard is one of the core principles of a free society.
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| posted by bus aunty 66 days ago |
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Er, sorry, I should clarify. The type/style of government being a rough model between China's and USA. I do not mean like North Korea's 
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| posted by Load Toad 66 days ago (edited 66 days ago) |
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The idea of being part of a nation and supporting it / building it / helping to govern it / fight for it is accepted now as the only way to be but it hasn't been the only way people have chosen to identify as a group. Many of the nations we take for granted aren't especially old or with any great degree of longevity. In the past people identified with families, tribes, religions, provinces, cities, warlords. I'm being deliberately provocative to suggest that in the 21st century there is no need for some of us and hopefully in the future many more of us to no longer identify with a particular nation. What will replace the nation concept will probably be based more on peoples ideas and beliefs and will be a natural result of increased communication / travel and yep...t'internet.
Having said that and para phrasing Churchill with regard to the best form of government - democracy isn't very good but it's the best option we have. The problem with every other method of government tried since Greek times is that without accountability to the population and without the input of the population the rulers very quickly act for their own and their favorites benefit and f**k the rest.
The belief that an elite of well educated and caring over class can govern the rest for the overall benefit of the nation will always result in a bunch of cronys and their henchmen trying to wield absolute power to protect their interests and privilege.
I don't think at anytime in history has any government of that type managed to hold on to power for very long - and I can't see that today any country could hope to do so unless it could absolutely control all of the media, news and information available in the country....and it's citizens were happy to buy any lie they were told.
You used to speak the truth.
But now you're clever.
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| posted by puyi 66 days ago (edited 66 days ago) |
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quote:
Originally posted by bus aunty
Anyone ever heard of the concept, the sum of the whole, is better than each on their own?
Sometimes, it is better to be together and clearly, Tibet is much stronger and better off with everything that China has been able to offer them. And can continue to offer them.
yes it must be great for the millions of Chinese immigrants who pour into Tibet to see all the infrastructure in place to help them adjust to their new colony
must be so heartening for the Tibetans to have to learn another cultures language at the expense of the demise of both their language and cultural identity....culture is transmitted by language...denying the language is the quickest way to destroy the culture.. Next time you are in Tibet or Xingjian have a look at what language takes centre stage
darren rudd is a sinophile
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| posted by bus aunty 65 days ago |
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quote:
[i] Having said that and para phrasing Churchill with regard to the best form of government - democracy isn't very good but it's the best option we have. The problem with every other method of government tried since Greek times is that without accountability to the population and without the input of the population the rulers very quickly act for their own and their favorites benefit and f**k the rest.
The belief that an elite of well educated and caring over class can govern the rest for the overall benefit of the nation will always result in a bunch of cronys and their henchmen trying to wield absolute power to protect their interests and privilege.
I don't think at anytime in history has any government of that type managed to hold on to power for very long - and I can't see that today any country could hope to do so unless it could absolutely control all of the media, news and information available in the country....and it's citizens were happy to buy any lie they were told.
What would you say are the characteristics of the Singaporean model of government?
In any case, as soon as one elects and gives power to a government to administer and enshrine values in to laws, you are giving over to a ruling class/group of people who are free to do whatever, and abuses/cronyism of power take place no matter which system.
As for something like the CCP, I would say they are greatly panicking at the moment because they know they do not have the power to control the population any more. And they know they must start ruling for the people. Sure, within this Chinese style governmental framework, the politician's family/kids will still get preferential treatment but come on, which system doesn't allow this to happen? Eg. In Australia, the MP's office gets an allowance each year to run their office. By enlarge, they 'hire' their wife or kid on this allowance. Do you really think Bush junior got in to his Harvard MBA because he was a really bright spark?
It is a matter of time for the CCP to turn a round their political system to a more people orientated way. But it doesn't have to be completely based on the westernised concept of democracy.
In the mean time, the CCP is trying to rule more so for the people but getting larger improvements in place has a great deal of to do with soft and hard infrastructure improvements, which will take them at least 20yrs. In the mean time, I can only be encouraged when I see in recent times, progress and quite a lot of freedom for individual Chinese in their day to day lives. Certainly not all, but a great deal of general improvement in stark contrast to 20yrs ago. And that is what I feel from a report card situation, that is the feeling of most Chinese mainlanders. They live and breath the system and knows it's problems and as long as they see marked improvement each year, they will continue to be generally supportive of the direction and form of the CCP administration.
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| posted by bus aunty 65 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by puyi
must be so heartening for the Tibetans to have to learn another cultures language at the expense of the demise of both their language and cultural identity....culture is transmitted by language...denying the language is the quickest way to destroy the culture.. Next time you are in Tibet or Xingjian have a look at what language takes centre stage
Strange how you can still go to Tibet and see their culture in practice, hey? That is what the millions of tourist go there for each year is it not?
As one who has studied in the area of 'language' developement, I am quite familiar with what 'language' and culture and power encapsulates.
But as a human being, I also know that it is one thing to harp on about 'righteousness' and damn everything else. As an outsider, it is easy to agree at all times to the populist notions. eg. I am for the environment. I am for minority identities. I am against Big Brother, I am for Heritage conservation, etc.
It is another, to look in to micro levels of situations and all the layers it encompasses and come up with practical and beneficial solutions. Solutions that no matter what will always not please 100% of the people 100% of the time.....So you will always get dissenting voices.
I am sure there are many Tibetans who are currently earning a living and bringing up their families in improved living conditions are very grateful that they can speak putonghua. IMO, societies and environments are always changing, as long as it is for the better in the main, I am for it. And there is no doubt, Tibet is much better off.
Sure, there will be winners and losers in any system and society. I found out long ago that there is no Utopia on earth.
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| posted by Load Toad 65 days ago (edited 65 days ago) |
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Your method of debate is to bring in various accusations of other systems faults or abuses - I don't really see your point - I'm not defending anyone that abuses a position of power.
Singapore has several parties but really the PAP only ever stands a chance. One Singapore friend said to me when I asked if he actually resented or enjoyed living in a one party state effectively ruled by the Lee family and their mates 'I've got a good life and we are rich and I can do what I want so why change?' Which I think goes straight to the heart of the 'I'm all right Jack' attitude. Of course in the past in Singapore any opposition to the PAP was very heavy handily dealt with through various court actions.
There is no CCP. That's just a name - there is no communist party in China. It is more like a fascist government.
The party in China is basically insecure and scared. It needs to continue developing China but realises that with development it will have a better educated, richer and more aware population. That population will start to demand more and different groups in society will want different things - some will want money, others freedom to travel, others freedom to speak, freedom of the press, they'll want to promote middle class politics, have a greater say in law making. Mostly it will be a mix of these things and politically most Chinese are very naive at the moment - that won't last.
And if the Party thinks it can keep a lid on that then the recent riots in Tibet and the yob jingoism will look like a party at a primary school.
I can understand the Party being so scared and insecure - they haven't got a f**king clue how to deal with the situation they are creating. But they have no choice - if they are wise they would be pro active not reactive and they would have started dialogues with various groups and the population outlining how they hoped to develop the country - not just how much they are going to spend on making f' moon rockets but how the social fabric of the country will develop.
If they think they can control 1.3 billion in the way Lee Kwan Yew managed to do with 3 million then they are very much mistaken; even Senior Mentor Grandmaster Flash Super Hero Lee's PAP party had to allow greater freedoms in the end.
You used to speak the truth.
But now you're clever.
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| posted by bus aunty 65 days ago (edited 65 days ago) |
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Puyi, take Tibet and HK as practical examples. There is no denying, both shed blood and there was/is pain, but in the long history of time, HK was improved greatly due to British rule. Alternatively, China could have fought for 300 yrs to keep Britain out and I really don't know what that would have achieved except lose a few million lives.
Without British influence, maybe HK would have been more like Guangzhou or maybe they would have been more like New York? Who knows, it is purely speculation.
....As long as the bulk of the members of the society are better off (I can only go by statisitics from the UN/WHO) then I can only say, so be it in Tibet as it was/is for HK....Rather than Hamas or Iraq for another 100yrs.
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| posted by bus aunty 65 days ago |
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LT, I think the CCP is doing things that they are not willing to publicly acknowledge yet.
A bit like any big corporation. The board/managers discuss everything frankly, dangers and opportunities, various strategies, and the practical actions to take. But the masses only hear about the end decisions.
The CCP is like that as well. They need time to loosen the strings. In the mean time, they need to becareful of what they are letting the masses know. I can see the CCP trying to become the 'preferred' party of the people. Just that there is no dummy opposition as in Singapore.
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| posted by Load Toad 65 days ago |
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I know a few political people in China (though from relatively small cities) and they do know that they have a major issue on their hands and are quit realistic about the problems. Where I think they are a fault is the belief that if people get richer and have a better standard of living then this will solve the problem. To an extent it will mean that people have less to b**ch about but economic development is never straightforward and it omits the simple fact that as people become richer and as the population is better educated and becomes more aware of other ways of government etc - they will want a greater degree of input and accountability.
Already there have been instances (graft and corruption in Shanghai, the slave labour and abuse in the brick kilns etc) where the population has not been satisfied with the action of the govt.
You used to speak the truth.
But now you're clever.
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| posted by puyi 65 days ago |
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so to legitimise( a shallow attempt) the areas of Tibet and Xingjian china floods the areas with han migrants so that in a relatively short space of time the areas soon have a majority of han living in the provinces....oh look it must be china because there are more Chinese living there........hmmmm which neighbour will be next????
China will reap the rewards that other countries currently are having problems with.....in such a short period of time china could reverse the 2 mistakes by assisting in development towards independence
darren rudd is a sinophile
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| posted by smog 65 days ago |
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But surely as an Australian you should know that all you have to do is say "Sorry" afterwards?
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| posted by bus aunty 65 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Load Toad
Already there have been instances (graft and corruption in Shanghai, the slave labour and abuse in the brick kilns etc) where the population has not been satisfied with the action of the govt.
What would have made the population satisfied? Fire the whole of the CCP? Kill the owner of the kiln and his family and the next ring of relatives? And the same for the CCP local member of that area?
Just because the immediate population concerned about those incidents was not satisfied with the government's action does not mean the government is unaware of thier shortcomings, or are not taking steps to improve it. Nor can you see/paint everything the CCP does in a negative light = China bashing.
The CCP are trying to work through so many things and things will slip through the crack. And sometimes, they just don't have the ability to address it in an instant. You are coming from a 'Western' environment and POV where things are more efficient. You are rightly calling for things to be done, faster, better. As a Chinese and a human being, I want the same for Chinese people and anyone else in this world that is suffering from lack of basics.
But give the Chinese government a break. It is an enormous task to manage. Can they just satisfy the blood thirst of those who feel it wasn't enough? They would have been condemend for that too. Should they send 10 people to life imprisonment? What for and waste the resources on their upkeep? Better to kill them and to donate their kidneys, right? It is not easy and that clear cut on so many things for the CCP. On top of that they can't always control the provincences but the CCP are held publicly accountable on the world stage for forced abortions and sterilisations, and so forth.
They are taking so many measures on so many fronts and i think it is time people cut them some slack. They are trying to educate the judges, making the judicial system fairer, but where do you get 100,000 educated judges overnight? Where do you get the 1,000,000 frontline accounting staff in the provinces to use computers to stop corruption?
Sometimes, because China has made such a huge leap in 20 yrs, the world expects they can churn out and do a complete about face to a open system overnight and cut out wasatage and all bad practices straight away because they are a CONTROLLING, 'IRON FISTED' government. Well, the CCP is not made up of miracle ruling policiticians who can order robotic workers.
Look at things fairly and I would say they are doing much for China. And I would say the Chinese people who have been overseas and come back, are more educated are very practical and know their government is not perfect, but they are pleased with the pace of progress to date. Hence they are still patriotic and supportive of their country. This shouldn't be seen as sheep or puppet mentality.
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| posted by bus aunty 65 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by puyi
oh look it must be china because there are more Chinese living there........hmmmm which neighbour will be next????
Puyi, is that the best you can come up with? Better stop China now before they go from Tibet and Xinjiang to Russia, Italy, then Canada? The Asian invasion becoming the China invasion and dominence of the world?
Man, let's stick to Tibet soverienty without the scaremongering.
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| posted by Load Toad 65 days ago |
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I think bus aunty you are an apologist.
You used to speak the truth.
But now you're clever.
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| posted by puyi 65 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by smog
But surely as an Australian you should know that all you have to do is say "Sorry" afterwards?
well if that is what was being asked for ( was a major stumbling block for the previous conservative government ) then that has been done ......now in respect to england boy that would be one very long list of saying sorry to all the countries that were invaded...............
darren rudd is a sinophile
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