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China in Hong Kong: Who were the people denying protesters their right to be heard in TST?
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| posted by bus aunty 76 days ago |
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Juno, IMO, it does get rather tiring hearing that you represent the only legitament 'local' view and of such conscience on this forum. In fact, you represent only ONE 'local' person's POV and in this case, clearly the VERY VERY MINORITY.
There is no doubt there was a massive and rather unexpected outpouring of support from the people of HK yesterday for China and the Olympics. And hence, it was quite interesting and VERY newsworthy. It was the same for the 500k march for democracy in HK.
Both public events showed the spirit of HK, that was undeniably expressed by the community and volunteered freely. You can paint the bulk as coming from China all you want but that shows more your bias and wishful thinking than anything else.
And as for the VIOLENT protesters, I think they would have been very quickly arrested if things had got really out of hand. Once again, bias and wishful thinking on your part.
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| posted by bus aunty 76 days ago |
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I saw Mia Farrow on the news asking for China to (her words) 'persuade the governenment of Darfur', (she should be asking USA to STOP the creating of tension in the region and supplying of funds and arms). I saw the Tibet protests, I saw Martin Lee and that Union legislature, and the day before we had the statue painted in orange.
These dissenting voices of protest clearly had a chance to make their views known, but one must also accept that clearly, the majority had spoken yesterday.
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| posted by Juno Watt 76 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by bus aunty
Both public events showed the spirit of HK, that was undeniably expressed by the community and volunteered freely. You can paint the bulk as coming from China all you want but that shows more your bias and wishful thinking than anything else.
Sorry if you don't like my viewpoint.
My major point here is that the peaceful expression of alternative views (freedom for Tibet, human rights in China) was suppressed by the abusive majority and by the police. Think on. It's not good for Hong Kong.
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| posted by smog 76 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Juno Watt
My major point here is that the peaceful expression of alternative views (freedom for Tibet, human rights in China) was suppressed by the abusive majority and by the police.
I agree that the suppression by the majority was worrying. Again it was reported by the SCMP:
quote:
While the occasion presented Hongkongers with an unprecedented opportunity to express their patriotism, it also exposed a little-known side of the population.
One second, the flag-waving patriots were cheering passing torch-bearers, the next instant they turned into an abuse-shouting mob bashing anyone protesting - in sharp contrast to the usual tolerant demeanour.
From reports I've seen I don't think the police did a bad job. They offered Ms Chan the opportunity to work with them to enable her to protest in a planned way so that the police could plan their "protection". She declined to do so, so they had to do what they could "on the fly" wherever she chose to appear. If she had been put in hospital by the mob then I would have said the police failed in their duty, so better to err on the side of caution if err one must.
I really don't have a problem with the SCMP's coverage. In addition to the reporting (OK - they didn't get a named mainlander to quote) the first leader today devotes 50% of the space to worrying about the "free speech" issues.
Like you (Juno) and the SCMP I do worry about how readily people attacked protesters, and I would like to learn more about the influence of mainland people or "hidden hands" on that. It does not bode well for the future.
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| posted by bus aunty 76 days ago (edited 76 days ago) |
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My kids will grow up in this society, if I thought HK was really going to be damaged by what happened or will happen, then I would certainly be dissenting, but I really don't share your concern (in a polite way, I really don't understand the negativity).
If anything, it should be a comfort to China to relax their rule even more so and I really believe they are looking toward HK for a lot of advice about how to slowly open things up. I come from the view that no matter what party governs a country, USA style, Australian style, Singaporean style, Chinese style, HK style, etc it doesn't matter.
In the end, it is really about governing for people/citizens by working towards giving them means for a reasonable standard of living without excesses of material wealth or extreme violence or threat by government or extreme views/behaviour by its citizen's either.
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| posted by smog 76 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by bus aunty
I come from the view that no matter what party governs a country, USA style, Australian style, Singaporean style, Chinese style, HK style, etc it doesn't matter.
In the end, it is really about governing for people/citizens by working towards giving them means for a reasonable standard of living without excesses of material wealth or extreme violence or threat by government or extreme views/behaviour by its citizen's either.
Eh? You start by saying that the politics of the governing party don't matter, and then in the next sentence you define what are acceptable politics for the governing party!
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| posted by tiger lily 76 days ago |
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What are you mumbling about Bus Aunty ? You don't see concern that people hurting each other in the streets and hoping to acquire a reasonable standard of living ?
~ Do not use a hatchet to remove a fly from your friend's forehead  ~ Chinese Proverb.
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| posted by bus aunty 76 days ago |
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Sorry guys, I am not being very clear. I am going to bed now. Good night.
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| posted by klaus93 76 days ago (edited 76 days ago) |
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quote:
Originally posted by Juno Watt
There's a video of the protesters being removed from the street here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/may/02/hongkongtorch
Frankly I find this really shocking. In China it would be sadly normal, but I am so disappointed to see it happen in Hong Kong.
Load, you are just a asshole. Did you spent most of your life in a england children home?
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| posted by Load Toad 76 days ago |
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In which case you'd be living in a 73 year old blokes cellar.
You used to speak the truth.
But now you're clever.
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| posted by migao 76 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Juno Watt
There's a video of the protesters being removed from the street here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/may/02/hongkongtorch
Frankly I find this really shocking. In China it would be sadly normal, but I am so disappointed to see it happen in Hong Kong.
I found it interesting that this girl spoke English like an ABC. And the interviewed pro-China supporters spoke like Mandarin speakers. Seems that actual HK people were standing back and did not give a toss.
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| posted by Load Toad 76 days ago |
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I think I just caught the Pearl Report or something (missed the whole comment - sorry) - some professor of politics or something saying that Hong Kong's freedom (of speech or the political system - I'm not sure what he was on about exactly) was now in question because Beijing was concerned about dissent.
So - if you exercise your freedom of speech you can't have it. If you shut the f**k up - you can have it?
Ace.
You used to speak the truth.
But now you're clever.
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| posted by puyi 76 days ago |
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But look on the bright side one can now publically assault another person on the streets of Hong Kong in front of the police and there will be no arrests made
darren rudd is a sinophile
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| posted by smog 76 days ago (edited 76 days ago) |
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Juno,
Thanks very much for posting the link. My immediate observations:
- Ms Chan would have done much better to make her case at least 50% in Chinese of one sort or another (perhaps she did, and the Guardian simply showed the English half given their audience, in which case, no problem).
- I still have a lot of sympathy for the police. As I understand it, she declined to tell them in advance of her plans, so a small random squad of police wherever she turned up had to do their best to give her the space to express her views. From what I see in the clip they made a pretty good attempt at that. In particular there is a plain clothes policeman being very direct with one counter-protester who approached aggressively and making sure he backs off. As I said before, if Ms Chan or one of her co-protesters (who, disappointingly, pretty much all appeared to be non-local) had been put in hospital by an assault that would also have been seen as a failure of policing.
- On the other hand, it might have been very helpful if someone had crossed the line and been arrested in order to make it very clear what is and is not acceptable in Hong Kong. Doubly so if that person was a mainland tourist.
- It is really very disappointing that there were large numbers of people around who did not accept her right to make her views known. I would very much appreciate comments from locals here about whether the people behaving aggressively towards her appear to be Hong Kong locals or mainlanders - I simply can't tell.
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| posted by bus aunty 76 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by puyi
But look on the bright side one can now publically assault another person on the streets of Hong Kong in front of the police and there will be no arrests made
Where is this bias by the HK police that people keep alleging?
If anyone was actually assaulted, they can file a formal complaint of assault to the police and they would have been obligated to investigate. Nothing was forth coming from the minority protesters.
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| posted by puyi 75 days ago |
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My comments were more about what happened to the lone protestor who was displaying a pro Tibet placard and was attacked by some moron right in plain view of the police who had begun escorting the protestor away... from the news report there was no police activity towards the person who assaulted the protestor (as shown on the news on friday night)
darren rudd is a sinophile
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| posted by smog 75 days ago |
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The news report I read said that they knew who he was, and they offered Ms Chan the opportunity to make a full statement and press charges against him. However, they also pointed out that this would take long enough that she would not be able to make any further protests. She decided not to do so, left and made a further protest as the torch passed through Central/Admiralty. There are pictures of this at a link that Juno posted earlier in the thread.
Having said that, I don't see that there is a time limit on making a statement, so I don't see why she couldn't have gone back after the torch relay finished and made the statement then.
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| posted by smog 75 days ago (edited 75 days ago) |
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Ah - OK - that's a different incident. I have no idea whether he was offered the opportunity to press charges.
But frankly, I don't think the protesters did themselves any favours by not working with the police in advance. That would have enabled the police to provide a much better environment for them to make their views known.
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