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China in Hong Kong: Who were the people denying protesters their right to be heard in TST?
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| Regular Member |
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| over the hill |
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| posted by puyi 61 days ago (edited 61 days ago) |
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quote:
Originally posted by smog
puyi,
I give up. You are clearly too thick to engage in rational debate.
and once again smog you lower yourself to insult that is a hallmark of many of your postings
darren rudd is a sinophile
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| posted by bunthorne 61 days ago |
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How about China 'deeply concerned' over Kosovo's declaration of independence.
Neither USSR nor China have recognised Kosovo yet.
Wonder why.
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| posted by Leonn 61 days ago |
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Personally, I don't see that much difference between China / Tibet and the USA / Indian reservations.
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| posted by bus aunty 61 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by geraldo
[quote]we're getting somewhere - which party has always refused talks, basically just wanting to install their government and run the Middle Kingdom the way they think it should be done ?
If your leaders run to another country and chose to argue their side from there, leaving a power vacuum in Tibet, there is no doubt that the most influential and powerful usually step in, in this case the CCP.
The stonewalling/posturing/talks are on then off again on then off again. Could be like this for another 100yrs.
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| Fundy |
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| posted by adfundum 61 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by bus auntyIf your leaders run to another country and chose to argue their side from there, leaving a power vacuum in Tibet, there is no doubt that the most influential and powerful usually step in, in this case the CCP.
The stonewalling/posturing/talks are on then off again on then off again. Could be like this for another 100yrs.
At the risk of offending you; some of your statements make absolutely zero sense to me...
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The problem with instant gratification is that it takes too bloody long...
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| posted by bus aunty 61 days ago (edited 61 days ago) |
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quote:
Originally posted by adfundum
There may be some valid points in BA's arguments, but I refuse to accept that only (s)he has access to the correct information, and that all who dissent are China-bashers.
In another post, I was shouted down by Juno for claiming to be proud of being Chinese. Questioned as to what I had to be proud of. Implying to me that I was a second class citizen of this world, coming from a country you wouldn't even spit on. That waving a voice for the CCP, Chinese people etc was totally unjustified.
He questioned my support for China's progress as some deluded zombie. Unfortunately, implying the same for hundreds of thousands of Chinese citizens a round the world who felt it was time to stand up against what they saw as "China-bashing". I was obviously not the only one who felt aggrieved. Following from the incident of CNN and Tibet, this is how 'bus aunty' came about. Seeing that there was such a lack of two way communications on such China criticism and slights. Like even the interpretation of the HK Torch relay pride. WTF? So many INDIVIDUAL Chinese people come out on their own to voice support to China to go forward. Make the country better. It was not some sort of collective pressure.... And why?....They see 'China bashing' as much as I do, because it is easy to take a swipe at the big guy and nit pick at situations of a 1.3billion people nation.
So hence, I started to blog. When I reply to posts to present another POV (usually contrary to Juno's obvious prejudices) I hope to increase this forums understanding and consideration for what is usually a complicated environment for China to work through. And to counter or add a different slant to the 'China-bashing' bias that I see. You don't have to believe what I say, but as long as you have given it a second thought and it goes some way to sometimes making you think about the people or culture of China, then I am happy that I have added to the expats world's interpretation of China.
Sometimes your contributors have a legitamate criticism, and sometimes I see it as a lack of consideration/broader understanding of something about China. Usually, on a website such as this, there will be less 'Chinese' POV's a round. It doesn't mean I shouldn't put my own view forward to counter a topic related to China. And I should be free to use the word 'China bashing' as someone saying 'Stupid China' or 'sheep mentality'.
If your offended by being called a 'China basher', take a number behind those accused of 'sheep mentality' and 'goons and thugs'.....I mean the moron CNN thought he was on a clear winner when he said I wasn't going on about the people of China I was going on about your government. And the collective will of the people of China said SOD off. As an expat, I would like you to consider/think about why I still got offended and other OVERSEAS chinese also got offended?
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| Senior Member |
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| 8410 Posts |
| in Bhutan |
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| posted by Juno Watt 61 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by smog
FFS! It's not a tangent - it is absolutely fundamental to the question.
It is a tangent, and it is a red herring -- most of the people supporting Tibetan autonomy/independence also agree that the same is good for Aborigines, Native Americans, Welsh etc, so pointing out that Western countries have made mistakes in the past does not absolve China from criticism for its repressive policies in Tibet and Xinjiang.
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| posted by bus aunty 61 days ago |
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Totally not relevant to the topic:
.....But Juno, for someone who is such a champion of minority groups and their right to be proud of their roots and origins, I really don't understand your argument against the right to be proud of being eg. "Chinese".
Are your views based not on legitemacy of a situation but 'just a do-gooder' David vs. Goliath mentality? Or, are you saying you can only be proud of your ancestry if you are numbered less than 500, seem small, and helpless?
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| Senior Member |
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| 8410 Posts |
| in Bhutan |
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| posted by Juno Watt 61 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by bus aunty
In another post, I was shouted down by Juno for claiming to be proud of being Chinese. Questioned as to what I had to be proud of. Implying to me that I was a second class citizen of this world, coming from a country you wouldn't even spit on. That waving a voice for the CCP, Chinese people etc was totally unjustified.
That is not at all true. In fact I compared the reaction to your PROUD TO BE CHINESE T-shirt to the reaction I would get if I walked around wearing a T-shirt saying PROUD TO BE ENGLISH. If I did that I would be regarded as a bigot, and that's the reaction the world is making to all this outdated pro-China nationalism.
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| Regular Member |
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| posted by geraldo 61 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by bus aunty
quote:
Originally posted by geraldo
[quote]we're getting somewhere - which party has always refused talks, basically just wanting to install their government and run the Middle Kingdom the way they think it should be done ?
If your leaders run to another country and chose to argue their side from there, leaving a power vacuum in Tibet, there is no doubt that the most influential and powerful usually step in, in this case the CCP.
The stonewalling/posturing/talks are on then off again on then off again. Could be like this for another 100yrs.
obviously - they would never had made another 50 years by staying in China or Tibet - there's no way you can argue about that.
Mr Dalai Lama has no problem giving his reign to the next one in line - except if he's appointed by the central government
you can't be that blind, can you ?
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| Regular Member |
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| 4608 Posts |
| of trenchancy |
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| posted by smog 60 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Juno Watt
quote:
Originally posted by smog
FFS! It's not a tangent - it is absolutely fundamental to the question.
It is a tangent, and it is a red herring -- most of the people supporting Tibetan autonomy/independence also agree that the same is good for Aborigines, Native Americans, Welsh etc, so pointing out that Western countries have made mistakes in the past does not absolve China from criticism for its repressive policies in Tibet and Xinjiang.
So where is the website of the "Free the Cherokees" campaign?
And anyway. if the leaders of the Tibetans themselves aren't even asking for independence, what business is it of a few crusty gweilo drop outs to try to impose their wishes on the Tibetans?
___________________________
http://smogsblog.wordpress.com for more of the same
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| Senior Member |
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| posted by Juno Watt 60 days ago |
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It's autonomy, smog... a chance to rule themselves within China.
IMHO that's something all good-spirited people should support.
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| Regular Member |
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| posted by smog 60 days ago |
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Juno,
Absolutely, but that's not what most of the overseas "rent a mob" actually think they are asking for. To me it is quite clear. If China genuinely abides by the agreement it signed in 1951 then everyone will be happy bunnies (except the rent a mobs, but they will rapidly find some new trendy cause du jours I'm sure).
___________________________
http://smogsblog.wordpress.com for more of the same
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| Newbie |
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| posted by bus aunty 60 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Juno Watt
It's autonomy, smog... a chance to rule themselves within China.
IMHO that's something all good-spirited people should support.
posted by puyi 49 days ago
maybe they were demonstrating that the dont want the han in their lands.................... how long does it take for the han to realise this fact
darren rudd is a sinophile
posted by puyi 51 days ago (edited 51 days ago)
draging the china chain read up on the history of Tibet.....its a sovereign nation in its own right invaded by the han since 1949 ( and everyday since),,,,,go there one day and have a look .....50% of Lhasa’s population is now han and they control the economy etc etc the Tibetans are second class citizens in their own country...the han are assisted by Beijing to migrate to Tibet given good jobs free housing, medical, tax rates are lower and wages higher.....what has started out as protests have sadly changed into the recent attacks on business.
darren rudd is a sinophile
You see Juno, my problem is with the many free-tibet-deliberately-spreading-bull crap-protesters. Take DARREN RUDD and his posts above. He isn't seeking AUTONOMY for Tibet he seeks INDEPENDANCE for Tibet being recognised as part of China.
For whatever reasons and prejudices existing in his mind, he and many others have gone a round drumming up support to give Tibet independance. So pardon me when I get infuriated by 'do-gooder' bull crap artiste paint me pink protesters who wouldn't know their arse from their tit. But they go a round painting themselves as EXPERTS on the situation.
So please don't deny this has not been happening.
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| Fundy |
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| posted by adfundum 60 days ago |
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I still haven't seen any proof of your expertise either...
And can you stop it with the CAPITALS please! None of us are blind here (to the best of my knowledge).
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The problem with instant gratification is that it takes too bloody long...
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| Newbie |
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| posted by bus aunty 60 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by geraldo
quote:
Originally posted by bus aunty
quote:
Originally posted by geraldo
[quote]we're getting somewhere - which party has always refused talks, basically just wanting to install their government and run the Middle Kingdom the way they think it should be done ?
If your leaders run to another country and chose to argue their side from there, leaving a power vacuum in Tibet, there is no doubt that the most influential and powerful usually step in, in this case the CCP.
The stonewalling/posturing/talks are on then off again on then off again. Could be like this for another 100yrs.
obviously - they would never had made another 50 years by staying in China or Tibet - there's no way you can argue about that.
Mr Dalai Lama has no problem giving his reign to the next one in line - except if he's appointed by the central government
you can't be that blind, can you ?
Don't get me wrong Geraldo.......I am just countering some of the misinformation that floats a round about China. Or giving a broader understanding and background to Sino related events, in order to increase EVERYONE's appreciation of their cultural tendencies based on their LOGIC and thought processess. And yes, sometimes the same event can be viewed very differently having been filtered through a Western or Eastern perspective.
Sometimes, what the Chinese administration does is wrong (deliberately or with unintended consequences), but sometimes it is not as clear cut as Puyi, Juno or Protesters makes out.
Sure, in the case of Tibet, I am totally for giving Tibetans proper autonomy, but it should remain part of China. No, I don't think monks should be persecuted or otherwise. However, it is something I hope in the fullness of time that the CCP and the Dalai Lama can negotiate with a good outcome for man kind. DEFINATELY without a war on the border of the two regions, nor any further loss of life on either sides.
But it still p**ses me off when I hear misinformation or prejudicial slants about China. So I am here to offer a slightly different view......And no, before anyone accuses me of being a troll, I have deliberately kept out of non-political related blogs where China is dissed because I don't consider every criticism about China equals to China-bashing.
But you need to ask yourself why someone like Puyi never has a kind word or a positive slant on an event in China? Now that to me is so China-bashing it is pathetic. But his view adds to every reader's perception that China is only to be viewed negatively.
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| posted by bus aunty 60 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by adfundum
I still haven't seen any proof of your expertise either...
Adfundum, everytime Puyi or Juno puts their personal negative POV on a Sino-related situation, do you paint their posts with the same skeptism too, or is it just accepted as FACT when they write something negative about China?
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| Newbie |
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| posted by bus aunty 60 days ago (edited 60 days ago) |
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quote:
Originally posted by bus aunty
quote:
Originally posted by adfundum
I still haven't seen any proof of your expertise either...
Adfundum, everytime Puyi or Juno puts their personal negative POV on a Sino-related situation, do you paint their posts with the same skeptism too, or is it just accepted as FACT when they write something negative about China?
posted by puyi 51 days ago
last October I was in Chengdu on my way to jiazaghou in northern Sichuan when I witnessed the beating of a Tibetan monk( gelugpa order) in the hotel where I was staying, there were 2 security guards and some police who punched and kicked the monk to the floor of the hallway and then bounced him off the walls a few times leaving him bloodied and in a poor state. this occurred at 1 am in the morning and when I was leaving at 5 am to catch my flight north I happened to notice that the monk was in a room with the 2 police still being harassed......at the same time as this there were protests going on in Lhasa and I wondered if there was a connection to what I had witnessed in that maybe the authorities were targeting the Tibetan monks who were in Chengdu (chengdu has there is a large community of Tibetans)
darren rudd is a sinophile
I hope Puyi has proven his above interpretation of the situation and related the political slant correctly.
I mean, where was his proof of his expertise in research here?
......I could say the police were beating the monk up because he was a fraudster, or who had been dressed as a monk to cover up his serial raping or murdering. He had a victim still somewhere about to die and they were beating him for info to help find her quickly.
He wouldn't be the first to take an event in China and paint it to suit him, would he?.......No need to proof your expertise there, as is often the case.....as it is just re-confirming what is in people's mind set.....China, the land of the easy target.
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| posted by geraldo 60 days ago |
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where else would a raping and/or murdering and/or fraudulent monk (tibetan or not) get beaten, punched and kicked by police and/or security guards, in a hotel lobby
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| Regular Member |
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| posted by Lucas 60 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Juno Watt
quote:
Originally posted by bus aunty
In another post, I was shouted down by Juno for claiming to be proud of being Chinese. Questioned as to what I had to be proud of. Implying to me that I was a second class citizen of this world, coming from a country you wouldn't even spit on. That waving a voice for the CCP, Chinese people etc was totally unjustified.
That is not at all true. In fact I compared the reaction to your PROUD TO BE CHINESE T-shirt to the reaction I would get if I walked around wearing a T-shirt saying PROUD TO BE ENGLISH. If I did that I would be regarded as a bigot, and that's the reaction the world is making to all this outdated pro-China nationalism.
Why would you, being a local, wear a Proud to be English T-shirt?
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open ones mouth and remove all doubt.
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