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In what way is Tibet any different from Hawaii?
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| posted by smog 5 days ago (edited 5 days ago) |
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To avoid being accused of further sidetracking the other debate I thought I'd start this one.
The history of Hawaii has just come to my attention, and it seems to me that there are very strong parallels with the history of Tibet.
In very brief summary, until 1898 Hawaii was an independent sovereign state, recognized by the United States, Great Britain, France and Germany with the exchange of ambassadors. In this it has even stronger claims to nationhood than Tibet. However, in 1898 it was annexed by the United States, the monarchy having been overthrown a few years earlier by people linked to the US.
In 1993 the US Congress passed a resolution apologizing "to Native Hawaiians on behalf of the people of the United States for the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii on January 17, 1893... and the deprivation of the rights of Native Hawaiians to self-determination."
So for Americans to demand any more from China with regards to Tibet than a similar apology would seem to be extremely hypocritical, wouldn't it?
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| posted by smog 5 days ago |
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Yes, yes, snow, bigger mountains, monks, no grass skirts, and so on, but you know what I mean.
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| posted by puyi 5 days ago |
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and then likewise the case of ireland ...........
darren rudd is a sinophile
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| posted by smog 5 days ago (edited 5 days ago) |
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Indeed - no grass skirts there either.
But now you seem to be agreeing with my earlier point in the other thread that once you adopt the "rewinding history so that anywhere that was once an independent place with a racially or culturally identifiable native people should be able to revert to that state at any point in the future" approach then you find that there are very many worms in the can, some of them rather close to home.
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| posted by puyi 5 days ago |
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as you agree that like hawaii tibet was an independent sovereign state thus it has been invaded and the tibetans should have reason for being p**sed off
darren rudd is a sinophile
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| posted by smog 5 days ago (edited 5 days ago) |
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I don't think I've agreed that anywhere. I would say from what I have read that Hawaii was very clearly a sovereign state. I don't think Tibet ever exchanged ambassadors with other countries, for example (which would be one of the best indications that those countries did recognise Tibet as a sovereign state).
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| posted by AKA 5 days ago (edited 5 days ago) |
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Someone read the Standard today?
Its quite interesting all this - history is indeed littered with many examples of large nations raping smaller nations, and US getting snippy with China over Tibet smacks of hypocrisy for sure
Maybe the Irish and Vietnamese models are the only ones Tibet has to consider? I know they are Buddhist and it goes against thier beliefs but treaties normally follow wars
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| posted by Paps of Jura 5 days ago |
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Someone is obviously snowed under in the heady heights of Telcons
Looking at life through rose tinters
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| posted by Lucas 5 days ago |
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The hookers are better in Hawaii
Actually, it only takes one drink to get me loaded. Trouble is, I can't remember if it's the thirteenth or fourteenth.
-- George Burns
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| posted by smog 5 days ago (edited 5 days ago) |
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quote:
Originally posted by Paps of Jura
Someone is obviously snowed under in the heady heights of Telcons
Likewise purchasing for large UK supermarket chains.
(You edit yours and I'll edit mine)
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| posted by AKA 5 days ago |
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a Geordie, dismissing this argument, would probably say Hawaii and Sh1te
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| posted by puyi 5 days ago |
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regards recognition
From I911 to I950, Tibet successfully avoided undue foreign influence and behaved, in every respect, as a fully independent state. The I3th Dalai Lama emphasized his country's independent status externally, in formal communications to foreign rulers, and internally, by issuing a proclamation reaffirming Tibet's independence and by strengthening the country's defenses. Tibet remained neutral during the Second World War, despite strong pressure from China and its allies, Britain and the U.S.A. The Tibetan government maintained independent international relations with all neighboring countries, most of whom had diplomatic representatives in Lhasa.
The attitude of most foreign governments with whom Tibet maintained relations implied their recognition of Tibet's independent status. The British government bound itself not to recognize Chinese suzerainty or any other rights over Tibet unless China signed the draft Simla Convention of I9I4 with Britain and Tibet, which China never did. Nepal's recognition was confirmed by the Nepalese government in I949, in documents presented to the United Nations in support of that governments application for membership.
darren rudd is a sinophile
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| posted by Lazy 5 days ago |
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Except the people of Hawaii aren't asking for their independance. And they don't have a spiritual leader that is not recognised by the US.
It's not comparable at all.
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| posted by smog 5 days ago (edited 5 days ago) |
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazy
Except the people of Hawaii aren't asking for their independance.
FFS! THE PEOPLE OF TIBET ARE NOT ASKING FOR INDEPENDENCE!
It is ignorant foreigners who are suggesting that Tibetans want independence. The Dalai Lama has said repeatedly that what he wants is levels of autonomy in accordance with the agreement that was signed in 1951.
There is a bill currently under consideration by the US Congress which is proposing similar rights for Hawaii & Hawaiians.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akaka_Bill
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| posted by Leonn 5 days ago |
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Who discovered China ?
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| posted by Juno Watt 5 days ago |
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Ancient treaties really don't have much relevance. I would boil this down to a simple principle:
If the Hawaiians want their independence -- let them have it.
If the Tibetans want their independence -- let them have it.
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| posted by smog 5 days ago (edited 5 days ago) |
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And you wouldn't draw the line anywhere? Why can't I declare my apartment to be an independent territory then? I could issue myself with a passport and pay taxes to myself.
Oh, and how are you going to define "Hawaiians" or "Tibetans"? By residence, race, or what?
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| posted by The Cerne Abbas Giant 5 days ago |
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quote:
And you wouldn't draw the line anywhere? Why can't I declare my apartment to be an independent territory then? I could issue myself with a passport and pay taxes to myself.
Quite. I was musing over the same thing today. Peter Griffin did just that. And it's not a new idea either...
Watchu talkin' about Willis?
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| posted by Juno Watt 5 days ago |
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The plight of the Tibetans doesn't move you at all, smog?
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| posted by Leonn 5 days ago |
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So if Scotland, Wales, Flanders and Northern Ireland wanted independence, they could get it instantly tomolo ?
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| posted by AKA 5 days ago |
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or indeed if England wanted independence from Britain?
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