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Democracy?
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| posted by Gum Tree 1186 days ago |
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Still musing on China. Do you think a democracy would work there in the short term? I have been thinking that they need a strong central govt to get the side-effects of rapid growth - pollution, divide between haves and have-nots, health, IP probs, corruption etc. One BJ-er said there is an old saying "One Chinese fights the enemy like a tiger, three Chinese fight like insects". Point being, according to him, that Chinese are too much into their own needs/point of view to pull together. So, they need a strong leader. It may well just be a party-inspired view, but I wonder how much truth there is, given the HK attitude of every person for him/herself.
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by tinybear 1186 days ago |
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As long as China is still a developing country, no, democracy probably is not such a good idea. Democracy is not a cure for all ills. Actually, even America is not, strictly speaking, a democracy.
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| posted by Gum Tree 1186 days ago |
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Wow that is a big statement, tb! Here is the US promoting democracy as the only way to go in the middle east. Care to explain?
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by npg 1186 days ago |
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i suppose that is the one major thing that mao did....and that was uniting china. unfortunately he didn't manage it well....he fought so hard to become leader then was paranoid in losing power.
in some ways lil john mirrors him.
can the party take on a form of democracy but not lose control? can china evolve democracy?
i think the only way they can do that is if they use a leader that has schooled, lived, worked, and been successful overseas. but that seems un-likely.
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| posted by rachel_z 1186 days ago |
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I don't think that true democracy exists anywhere in this world. Look at USA. Look at Singapore. Democracy? Come on Bush and LKY and co, I am not dumb.
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| posted by tinybear 1185 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Gum Tree
Wow that is a big statement, tb! Here is the US promoting democracy as the only way to go in the middle east. Care to explain?
The United States Of America is a constitutional republic where the will of the majority does not necessarily carry the day. Indeed the Constitution of the United States places great emphasis on protecting the rights of the minority (in some cases too much in my view). In developing countries, things have to move and move quickly. A strong, yet benevolent, dictatorship is best in such circumstances. When a substantial proportion of the poulation achieves a reasonable level of comfort and wealth, the country can then go on to think of a more representative form of government. Absolute democracy is rare. Indeed, I think one would find it very difficult to find one at present. Can you think of one? India perhaps? That's why very little actually gets done in India. [:x)]
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| posted by HKGringo 1185 days ago |
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GT, it's actually not that big a statement...
The US is, and has always been, a Federal Republic.
The difference between a republic and a democracy is direct representation (in a democracy) and represtentative representation (in a republic). The founding father's preferred the idea of having a republic over a democracy to protect the individual from the majority. They used a kind of best of breed solution taking what they felt was best from democracy, but mitigated by a balance of power and a layered federal structure.
Elections alone do not a democracy make. Plenty of Authoritarian regimes and dictatorships have held 'elections'.
A Constitution must be put into place with layers of checks and balances on power. Cabinets must be elected to represent the people (barring a straight democracy...which isn't what's being put into place in the Middle East)...and on and on.
I believe that a country like China would have to evolve into it's own brand of a democratic republic over time. There's not going to be any easy solution for such a vast and dispersed country to come together and make a drastic change like that without it coming from within.
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
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| posted by HKGringo 1185 days ago |
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beat me to it...
There's no place like 127.0.0.1
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| posted by npg 1185 days ago |
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tb, is there democracy in india? i know they have open elections...but???
maybe you are right.....democracy can be bought by the individual and india have plenty of people who can afford it...even if they are the minority.
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| posted by tinybear 1185 days ago |
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I don't know enough of India to say for sure. But India is often referred to as the world's largest democracy.
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| posted by Gum Tree 1185 days ago |
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I think maybe that is the same way I meant it - a democracy in these times is when the general populace can freely and fairly elect their leadership. So by this definition, even the US rates. I was speaking pragmatically, rather than philosophically. India is the largest just by the number of people, I think.
China will not give general suffrage soon, and I wonder if they should. I sort of agree that a benevolent dictatorship may be called for - just like Pakistan at the moment. But remembering "absolute power corrupts absolutely". Nothing like a looming election to get the leaders in democratic countries to get their acts together ... for a year or so, anyway.
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by NN 1185 days ago |
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Is there such thing as benevolent dictatorship? To me it's much of a contradiction in terms. History has shown that only a few profit from dictatorships, and that the reign of dictators is built on fear, terror, and suppression.
If benevolent dictatorship works, why do we bother with democracy? Why is it that there's a nation that loves to call itself the world's greatest democracy?
I don't have the answers. It's just that I don't believe in benevolent dictatorships.
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| posted by Gum Tree 1185 days ago |
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I am trying to think of a totally benevolent dictatorship and can't. But I reckon there might be dictatorships that are not totally malevolent. Just partly both as all human things are. I don't think China should stay forever under the current regime, just wondering whether it is the best solution in the interim. Until the growth stabilises and there is a genuine, substantial, middle-class.
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by tinybear 1184 days ago |
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Well, Hong Kong used to be ruled by a benevolent dictator: Britain.
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| posted by Gum Tree 1184 days ago |
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I wonder how much pb's problem is down to a lack of democratic structure. The 'rights' of the people being subsumed by the 'rights' of the powerful?
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by tinybear 1184 days ago |
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The rule of law is still not strong enough in China, but they're gradually changing. Old habits die hard. Cronyism and nepotism will still thrive even when corruption is reined in though.
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| posted by Velvet 1184 days ago |
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Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
A political or social unit that has such a government.
The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.
The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.
Does this sound like China? Hmmm...
"What we do in life echoes in eternity"
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| posted by hknet 1181 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by tinybear
The rule of law is still not strong enough in China
China has rule of law? That's news to me. As far as I'm aware, China has 'rule BY law', which is quite different from 'rule OF law'.
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| posted by tinybear 1181 days ago |
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Singapore has rule by law. China's trying to follow suit, but hasn't quite arrived there yet. Look at how they handled the Ching Cheong case. They failed to comply with their own laws in arresting Ching.
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