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Respecting cultures.
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| posted by Gum Tree 1175 days ago |
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There is a fine line between arrogantly assuming "my way is best" and trying to see a global picture. I heard a Dutch, African-born asylum seeker, politician who was also involved with that film that got the director killed. Her life is also threatened (sorry, forgotten her name - gdv?). Her point was, that it is right to be culturally aware, but it is not right to use cultural practices to override the greater good and/or the law. For example, it might be culturally acceptable to stone adulterous women to death, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't condemn it and those who do condemn it shouldn't be simply classified as "racist"
One interesting thing, for me at least, was she said that the 'politically correct minority' were tacitly allowing abuse of women, children and gays, because they prized 'multiculturalism' above everything else.
I have to say, whenever I have seen people criticising other cultures on this and other forums, I have also seen the critics being labelled as 'racist'. Maybe it is time we avoided these emotive terms and looked at the substance of the arguments, instead of lazily labelling them with a derogative, and more meaningless every day, term.
Whales should not be hunted under the superficial guise of "scientific research" as the Japanese are doing. Most species in the Sthn Hemisphere have been hunted to almost extinction, are still endangered and despite the 'cultural' imperative, whales are NOT necessary for life in Japan - they are a bonus. The Japanese need to learn to stop lying and covering up their essentially commercial, not scientific, endeavours. Maybe when they come clean, real discussions can happen.
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by Waterslang 1175 days ago |
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I'm still in a bad case of jet-lag but if I understood correctly we should not get on our high horses because people eat dogs, cats, whales, snails, frog legs, horse steaks or (almost forgot) shark fin's soup?
Live and let die.
BTW, we all are a bit racist imho. It's only how we 'define' a racist definition?
And I AM racist towards all but one racists. Grin.
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| posted by tinybear 1175 days ago |
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Nah, the Japs aren't in the habit of coming clean with anything. Look at how they deal with the Nanjing Massac...I mean the Nanjing Incident. And don't even mention the comfort women. They don't exist.
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| posted by Gum Tree 1175 days ago |
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Sort of ws - what I mean - in the shortest way is that we need to stop looking at the culture and look at the issue. Shark fin collection is cruel and mean and no way should a "culture" be the excuse for doing it. And that doesn't make me racist - it just means I don't think it should be done - savvy? Tb, the Japanese seem to make a habit and take pride in using the culture/racist tag to get away with commercial interests.
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by The Cerne Abbas Giant 1175 days ago |
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I have used the word "racist" in these forums and I do not use it lightly.
I have no problem with people making observations about people of different cultures. Positive or negative. This is good and an intelligent person should be able to present such observations in a way that it is constructive. What is bad is when someone makes lazy generalisations based on his existing prejudices, his own unconscious cultural norms and his own limited exposure and experience.
The most common manifestation of this is the association of the actions of one person or a small minority of people with the general behaviours of a race of people. To me this is both lazy and racist thinking.
As for "my way being best", I'm realistic enough to know that sometimes I might not have thought things through properly or have seen both sides. Anyone who says differently is stubborn or a liar. But I don't see any reason to sit on the fence when I see others with spouting forth half-baked opinions and ill conceived ideas.
And I ain't gonna condone stoning.
Watchu talkin' about Willis?
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| posted by tinybear 1175 days ago |
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You don't condone it; but would you condemn it? Would you, if I told you that in a recent case a Muslim woman was stoned for committing adultery, but the guy got off with a few lashes? I would and I don't care if I'm being accused of being racist.
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| posted by The Cerne Abbas Giant 1175 days ago |
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A WWF bloke was interviewed in the SCMP on Thursday about the shark fin debate. He was Chinese and had an interesting perspective.
His view was that shark fin is not linked to Chinese culuture like some foods are, for example in the way that tea or rice or lotus flowers (for example) have their place in history, myths and legends.
The consumption of shark fin on the other hand came about at weddings and other important occasions as a way of displaying wealth and status, and is a "practice" (a fairly recent one at that) rather than "culture" or "tradition".
Watchu talkin' about Willis?
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| posted by The Cerne Abbas Giant 1175 days ago |
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Of course I would condemn it. I think it's barbaric. That's not racist.
It would be racist of me to say Arabs or are barbaric
Watchu talkin' about Willis?
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| posted by The Cerne Abbas Giant 1175 days ago |
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Of course I would condemn stoning. I think it's barbaric. That's not racist.
It would be racist of me to say Arabs or Muslims are barbaric because some of them subscribe to this practice.
Watchu talkin' about Willis?
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| posted by tinybear 1175 days ago |
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Would it be racist to say that Sharia law is discriminatory and/or barbaric, you think?
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| posted by The Cerne Abbas Giant 1175 days ago |
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I don't know enough about the detail of Syiariah law to know. Certainly I think stoning, caning, chopping off of limbs are barbaric and primitive punishments. I suspect the scope of Syiariah Law is broader than that and as with any legal system if its interpretation and implementation is in the hands of intolerant people then the punishments are unduly harsh.
I am also against the death penalty. How about you?
Watchu talkin' about Willis?
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| posted by tinybear 1175 days ago (edited 1175 days ago) |
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Yes. I'm against the death penalty because I do not believe that any legal system can arrive at the right decision everytime. Death is irreversible and final and the possibility of even one person being put to death for a crime he did not commit should be avoided. Studies are also inconclusive as to whether or not the death penalty has the desired deterrent effect. The only reason for the death penalty, therefore, is the 'eye for an eye' principle which the Chinese believe in. But I believe that a long prison term is punishment enough.
Back to Sharia law, you say "as with any legal system if its interpretation and implementation is in the hands of intolerant people then the punishments are unduly harsh." Well, Sharia law is quite clear as to what punishments are meted out for specific crimes. There is very little room for creative interpretation.
Read more: http://www.ntpi.org/html/whyoppose.html
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| posted by sunwaterandsky 1175 days ago |
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Cultures evolve and these are examples of how they evolve. As we learn and experience new things, we add them to our cultural identity. We also stop practicing the things that no longer mesh with our new identity. Sharks fin soup, eating dog, whaling are all examples of "cultural behaviours" that are under pressure and may disappear from current practice. It wasn't so long ago that women's feet were bound in China, but i don't hear an outcry supporting that as a cultural necessity.
There is a west coast tribe in Canada that still believes that whaling is a cultural necessity. They killed one (I think it was one) whale a couple of years ago - one, not a whole species!
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| posted by Waterslang 1175 days ago |
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If there is clear and present evidence and the crime is that major, I do not have any problem with death penalty. Unfortunatly, in some countries lots of people are on death row, while innocent.
If the MJ trial would have had the final penalty as a verdict (just assuming), I would be against it, because of lacking real evidence. If GWB was convicted for mass murder I would approve. Inch Allah!
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| posted by Gum Tree 1175 days ago |
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sws - just wait - I would bet the binding issue will become a "cultural necessity" if only by a few reactionist females (and maybe males) in a small area. China is a big place and I bet there is a burgeoning movement to re-activate this practice. Just like islam females in France and other places are acting as apologists for the suppression of women under Shariah law and so-called Islam - even if they think they are fighting for individual rights. It is the way of the world, these isolates get more press than the majority.
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by AxT 1171 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Gum Tree
what I mean - in the shortest way is that we need to stop looking at the culture and look at the issue.
Well you have summed it up perfectly. The issues of stoning people are just outright wrong. Burning rubbish / paper is wrong and creates pollution (hence it being banned in countries like Australia). Jailing someone for what would otherwise be considered a minor offence for 20 years is wrong.
But I am guessing from the initial crux of the thread that the real question is "who are we to judge?" I love Hong Kong for challenging this is in me, and my hitherto arrogant assumptions that "my way" (i.e. western / Aussie way) was correct all along.
When it comes to issues of personal safety and comfort, a greater law needs to be addressed, and it needs to go beyond what is "culturally" permissable.
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| posted by Gum Tree 1171 days ago |
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"Who are we to judge"? It is a really deep question, I think. And I totally agree with your last statement. I used to just do the "I'm in another country, I have to respect their ways, I should not judge on my own standards" etc etc etc. Very post-modernist. Now, I am moving to believe that humans pretty much want the same things all over the world. Food, mates, education, safety and health for self and kids, family, community etc etc.
So judging for me is to try and judge what is right for all humans (me and family being part of that group, lol) not just within a culture. And being of the age and education and experience that I am, I no longer think that my "judgement" is any worse, and often a whole lot better, compared to others. That's not arrogance, that is accepting a responsibility.
Like, spitting. Cultural, but harmful to every one else around them. Driving crazily and not wearing seatbelts. Dangerous to both the driver and passenger and anyone else who might unfortunately be in the way. Picking nose in public and flicking. A health hazard to others. Stoning women for adultery. An exercise in unintelligent, unthinking power and a way of subjugating women, depriving their children of the person who is most likely to support them to grow. Burning paper for ancestors in the apartment. A fire hazard to hundreds and a pollution hazard to the immediate people.
So - that is where I am. Judging my reactions by the credo "is this just my problem, or is it something that is harmful/hurtful etc to a larger number of people". But, if I don't judge, how can I expect govts etc to do so???? Sometimes "judging" isn't a bad thing - it is just that some people judge and don't act and others judge then act in a totally counter productive way.
The thing that really p*sses me off are people who respond to your considered judgement with the comment "why don't you just go home, then". Like, it is not as if we don't judge our own country?!?!?
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by AxT 1171 days ago |
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quote:
Originally posted by Gum Tree
"The thing that really p*sses me off are people who respond to your considered judgement with the comment "why don't you just go home, then". Like, it is not as if we don't judge our own country?!?!?
GT, you have no idea - I was only thinking about that EXACT statement on the way home tonight! [:u] People who respond with that are jerks. They are trying to invalidate what you are saying by implying the problem is you. My response, "I would GO home if it were that easy, arse hole, but like all the other Expats here, I have gone to considerable trouble and through a lot of s*&t to be over here at this point and I am airing a point of view trying to make sense of it all". You are obviously a thinker, and because you hit someone with a problem they hit you back with the typical "don't wanna know" attitude. (I was having a bitch about something at work to a colleague earlier this year - someone I might add that always like to gossip and tell stories of their own - and was met with "well it's not a tsunami is it?" Nice huh?)
You don't need to judge, but we all need to discern. Problem is, no one wants to. We are all witnesses to this, we are all part of the one planet and human family - and everytime we ignore s*&t that needs addressing, I think we lose a part of our soul. We don't always have to act and confront, but sooner or later, walking away ain't gonna cut it. Was it easy to walk away from SARS?
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| posted by tinybear 1153 days ago |
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OK, here's a real hot dog. Can you respect this culture?
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| posted by barbie 1153 days ago (edited 1153 days ago) |
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tb, I find it hard to respect anyone that sees animals only as a means of food.
Such arrogance to believe it is one's right to eat a living being.
Often when challenged, people say "plants are living things too", which is just about always the catch-cry of carnivores.
Each of is must live with our consciences, if we have one that is.
I wait for the day when schools have all the funding they need and the airforce has to have a cake stall to raise money for a new bomber.
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| posted by life 1153 days ago |
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Water I think you eat too much rice and hence your obsession with Rice.
Barbie, what is wrong with eating meat? Serious question. And plants are living things also. In fact, believe it or not, Catholicism teaches (yes I was forced into a lot of religious doctrine classes) that even plants have souls/spirits.
I'm bored, I'm pi*sy, and, I have no shame.
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