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The Giant
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| posted by life 1167 days ago |
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The Giant made an interesting statement while responding to another topic.
"No nation ever made progress by excluding immigrants."
Is that a fair statement? The implication is that natives are too stupid to think and thus the need for immigrants. Are third world countries backward because no-one wants to immigrate there? Give me a break.
I'm bored, I'm pi*sy, and, I have no shame.
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| posted by The Cerne Abbas Giant 1167 days ago |
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My contention is that immigration is good for a country. Nations which welcome immigrants have an incoming pool of motivated, energetic, and frequently highly qualified people starting new lives.
As far as I am concerned the implication is not that existing residents are too stupid to think. But people starting new lives will often work longer hours for less, or bring new skills, ideas and experiences with them from overseas.
Countries that have not developed apace have not done so for a variety of reasons. Failure to keep talented people (brain drain) and attracting good talent from oversea is naturally a problem and does impact development.
Watchu talkin' about Willis?
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| posted by life 1166 days ago |
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Immigration is only good for the immigrant and rarely for the good of the whole country. (IMHO).
We have two different types of immigrants. The poor and the wealthy.
The poor will take on any job for less wages. This increases the un-employment of the intellectually challenged in the host country. Thus breeding resentment to foreigners.
The wealthy or educated enter the work force and in some countries, are paid more than the locals who can perform the same tasks. In other cases they enter the workforce because there is a fellow countryman who helps them get their foot in the door. All the while displacing educated locals from jobs and increasing un-employment. I believe that immigrants are no more motivated than un-employed locals, they are just more noticeable.
It is not only people starting new lives who often work longer hours. People starting new jobs do the same. As soon as there is a level of comfort (or dissatisfaction over pay raises) then the quality of work will stay the same, but the willingness to work longer hours for the same amount of pay will diminish.
I do agree with your last statement. Failure to keep talented people within their native country is a problem. But science has shown us that the same ideas are usually conceived and worked on at the same time in different parts of the world. In other words, too bad people feel they have to get talent from overseas, and ignore that which they already have.
I'm bored, I'm pi*sy, and, I have no shame.
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| posted by Gum Tree 1166 days ago |
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Life - when a country has a universally available education system, the expectations of the native population increases by way of jobs. So ... someone has to do the sh*t work. Eventually the native population who really are only capable of these jobs go into chronic unemployment syndrome, which is a drain on the whole society and all sorts of programs are developed by enlightened societies, to get these people up to speed. Or else they die, on welfare, a victim of a society that promised them more than they were capable of.
In Oz, one of the saddest things is the demise of the apprenticeship system. It used to be that a 15 year old kid could get an apprenticeship and be glad of it. Now .... they are almost asking for university entrance scores. And the wages are waaaaayyyyy below the poverty level. First year apprentices are lucky to get the job and then lucky to take home $200 a week (AUD). They are often worked well beyond their hours and treated like slaves. Some get through this, but when they want their mobile phones, their nights out, their clothes etc ... AND if they have to pay $100 a week rent or more, how can they survive? I have gone a bit off topic, but if you get immigrants who will take this and live with it, coz it is way better than where they came from, what happens? It is a problem.
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by God de Vader 1166 days ago |
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im one of the least racist people on here i believe, but i have to comment, immigration can also go to far, look at holland, a country with 100's of Mosque's now and people there for 3 generations and still dont speak a word of Dutch, even worse they now want to involve in politics and change everything so that their home countries can get richer of it.
when people stand up and fight back against this we got these lame killings.......
I'm not under the alkafluence of inkahol that some thinkle peep I am. It's just the drunker I sit here the longer I get."
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| posted by Gum Tree 1166 days ago |
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gdv - holland is just a baby wrt immigration. It has been so liberal and protected coz the immigrants have mostly gone to France, Germany and Britain. Now, it is facing the same thing as all developed countries and has to learn to deal with it. I am sure it will, coz it is a well-developed democracy and the liberalism of the Dutch is world reknown. It will just take time. Why should you worry about mosques???? Are they tearing down the Catholic or Reformist churches to put them up????? Are you religious?
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by God de Vader 1166 days ago |
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i dont really care about mosks......but if people start to go to school, and refuse to follow the schools rules due to this or that.....then yes i get upset, if you don lik it, go back home!
same goes for me here, if i dont like it i should go home, and no not the local chinese should adapt to me, no !! I should adapt to them
I'm not under the alkafluence of inkahol that some thinkle peep I am. It's just the drunker I sit here the longer I get."
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| posted by Gum Tree 1166 days ago |
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Geeeezzzz gdv - didn't you ever rebel as a teenager????? Friends of mine and myself refused to stand for "God Save The Queen" when it was played at school assemblies and got suspended for a week. That was the beginning of the rebellion. Also got suspended for wagging (skipping) school to attend the Vietnam Moratorium marches and also got suspended for wearing a Moratorium badge on my school uniform. Got numerous detentions for wearing makeup and having my uniform too short - oh, and smoking in the boys toilet. It is NORMAL to rebel against school. Doesn't mean they are bad - in fact, they are probably the leaders of the new world. At least they are thinking for themselves and have a bit of courage.
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by God de Vader 1166 days ago |
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huh? yeah right....and they get encouraged to do so by their parents.......lmao........come on GT your kidding me now eyh.....this was enough, just admit it........bulder bulder bulder.......
you obviously have no clue how bad it got in holland, i beluieve Rotterdam is now a city with over 35 percent immigrants........hey 35 % thats a little bit much aint it?
even YOU wouldnt feel happy to walk the streets in day time there anymore
I'm not under the alkafluence of inkahol that some thinkle peep I am. It's just the drunker I sit here the longer I get."
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| posted by Gum Tree 1166 days ago |
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No kidding gdv, I was the original wild child. But Rotterdam is an international port, isn't it? Of course it will have lots of immigrants. 35% seems a lot, but are the legit? And will they stay there? You class as an immigrant almost in HK - came for a better life. Are you going to start to rip HK to shreds?????
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| Senior Member |
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| posted by God de Vader 1166 days ago |
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didnt came for a better life...came to please the wife.....(aaahhhhh) .....finally fell in love with HK and nope not ripping it apart, trying to blend in instead, which is what i expect from immigrants in my home country to do also.
I'm not under the alkafluence of inkahol that some thinkle peep I am. It's just the drunker I sit here the longer I get."
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| posted by Gum Tree 1166 days ago |
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They will, eventually - provided the govt doesn't force them into a corner where they have to fight. Just like adolescents. The more you enforce rules, the more they fight to beat them.
"Marooned on a rock with 80,000 and now 90,000 alcoholics and counting"
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| posted by life 1166 days ago |
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The Vader has a point. Why do immigrants in general want everything to be done their way. The way they had it back home. They whine when they can't find certain foods, or breads for that matter. They expect society to embrace and accept and bend over backwards to accommodate their traditions. As for the mosques, how many Roman Catholic churches do you see springing up in Muslim countries with Catholics. Most likely far and few.
The days of immigrating to assimilate are over. We are in the era of equal rights and you owe me.
I'm bored, I'm pi*sy, and, I have no shame.
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| posted by The Cerne Abbas Giant 1166 days ago |
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America was built on immigration. With each generation or two there has been a new social and ethnic hierarchy. It's changing fast even now, notably with the groing influence and power of hispanics.
Immigrants have been arriving in and helping develop Britain (through the importation of skills and labour) for hundreds of years. Europe is one huge melting pot - there's no such thing as a "pure" Englishman or Frenchman or Dutchman because we have been marrying our neighbours for centuries.
Australia is immeasurably culturally richer for its influx of people since the 70s and is benefitting economically from closer ties with Asia, partially influenced by business and family ties of those who have arrived.
None of the assimilation issues of which you all speak are new. They happen with every new generation of immigrants, and have done for centuries. The issues are very real and I do agree that at times they can result in serious social problems.
However, a generation or two down the line and people feel more at home in the country they are born in, not their grandparents' old country. In other words, a society adapts and develops. To try and hang on to some sort of old fashioned idea of the character of your nation is impossible, and in my view undesirable.
Watchu talkin' about Willis?
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| Senior Member |
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| posted by The Cerne Abbas Giant 1166 days ago |
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One more point. Funny how we think of the emigrant as the adventurer type, off to start a life in a brave new world full of opportunity, but we often see the immigrant as a poverty stricken refugee.
Let's not forget that these people are often the people with the intelligence, drive and resourcefulness to make a long and arduous journey. They also are often the middle classes in their old country, perhaps having had to leave in hurry with nothing. We should give them a fair shout.
Watchu talkin' about Willis?
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| posted by life 1165 days ago |
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Speaking of Britain, I read they want to curb the amount of refugees they are required to admit by leaving the organization that requires them admit refugees. Then, they plan on setting up new immigration laws that would require the immigrants speak english, and have a profession.
Not a bad idea, but then now you will really leave the poorer countries in a mess.
In the meantime, who advocates for the rights of the natives who are losing their jobs to people from other countries?
I'm bored, I'm pi*sy, and, I have no shame.
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| Senior Member |
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| 11419 Posts |
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| posted by The Cerne Abbas Giant 1165 days ago |
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UK unemployment is amongst the lowest in Europe. Nobody's jobs are being taken. Try to get a plumber or a carpenter or a plasterer. Expensive and difficult.
And who would pour the beer in London if there were no Aussies?! :)
Watchu talkin' about Willis?
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